SXSWi 2010: Is WordPress Killing Web Design?

SXSWi 2010: Is WordPress Killing Web Design?

on Jan 29th 2011 with 64 comments

Just because you didn’t get to go to that awesome conference doesn’t mean that you can’t still watch the lectures! Each weekend, we’ll feature a recommended web design related lecture on Webdesigntuts+.

In this weekend’s talk, we’re going to be watching a panel presentation by from SXSW 2010; The topic is all about whether WordPress (and other CMS platforms) is killing the creativity in web designers. Watch the video and let us know what you think!

Video Lecture: Is WordPress Killing Web Design?

This is a panel presentation from the SXSW 2010 Interactive Conference. If you haven’t heard of SXSW, it’s an Interactive, Film and Music conference that happens each March. It’s one of the premier conferences of the entire year for web and interactive audiences, and it features some of the sharpest thinkers of the year on topics ranging from App Design to Industry Trends.

This particular video discussion was about whether WordPress is squashing web design creativity… or more specifically, does designing a site for a specific CMS (like WordPress, Expression Engine or Drupal) limit web designers’ creativity by forcing them to design within a certain template or pre-determined layout?

The two most dangerous things in the world are handguns and Content Management Systems…
– quoted by Brenden Dawes

What Do You Think?

It’s certainly an interesting question… but people have been saying things alluding to the notion that “Technology Limits Creativity” for a while now. Heck, print designers have been saying that since the dawn of the internet. But what do you think?

Does technology ever really limit creativity?

Have you worked with CMS’s like WordPress or Expression Engine and felt like you can’t break the mold?

Do you feel like you are limited in what you’re allowed to design for when you work with these systems?

Post your thoughts in the comments section below!

SXSW Interactive 2011 is March 11-15!

As a side note, this year’s SXSW is coming up shortly (March 11-15). If anyone is interested in attending, now is the time to grab tickets ;) I’ll be speaking with a panel there on the topic of “Making Money From WordPress, Without Working for Auttomatic” with Shane Pearlman, Alex King (Crowd Favorite), and Sonia Simone (CopyBlogger), so be sure to drop into our panel if you decide to go!

Brandon Jones is MDNW on Themeforest
 
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Brandon Jones is the old Wptuts+ Editor. From sunny Southern California, Brandon has been designing, drawing, photographing, and coding the world around him for the past several years. Not content to pick one media and stick with it has left Brandon with a broad range of talents that have allowed him to work on projects ranging from grungy digital art kits to Fortune 500 software prototyping. He loves design, but even more, he loves the passion and creative spirit that embodies the design community. Check out Brandon's work at ThemeForest.  

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  • http://themeforest.net/user/epicera/portfolio?ref=epicera Brandon Jones
    Author

    I’ll chime in with my opinion on this really quick: I can see that in March of 2010 that this might have been a serious concern for web designers (and even more so in January of 2010 when they selected this panel)… but nowadays, I feel like designers are finally starting to really push outside of the mold for platforms like WordPress. Perhaps because the “standard template” layout has been overly done soooo much, designers seem to be going out of their way to create new, inventive and creative themes using CMS platforms… so my answer would be a strong “No, WordPress is not killing creativity… in fact, at this point in time, it seems to be inspiring it!”.

    That said, it falls to designers to actually push the boundaries here… as with any pre-built solution, it takes willpower and creativity to really do something special! Coding shouldn’t ever be a boundary if you have the ability to learn how to do it yourself… and WordPress specifically is one CMS where it is extensively documented and talked about on blogs… so creating unique customizations aren’t bound by closed-source coding problems. What does everyone else thing?

    Do these CMS’s hurt or help creatives?

    • http://www.glenhealy.com Glen

      Big fan of WordPress. I think, as with anything, if designers are using wordpress or any framework for that matter to “get out of doing stuff” its bad. If they use it as a tool, I think it can be very powerful. I completely disagree with the individual in the video who said his friend who is just learning design makes good use out of the “1 click install” and lets her gradually learn how to do stuff in wordpress. Id say if you are getting paid by someone to do a site, you need not download wordpress until you understand HTML/CSS on even the most basic level. In general, I would recommend learning HTML and CSS prior to even “messing around” with any CMS.

      • http://stellarchariot.com/ Arun

        ‘…if designers are using wordpress or any framework for that matter to “get out of doing stuff” its bad’

        Hey Glen. I’m not quite sure what you mean here. The whole point of a framework is to get you out of doing (boring/difficult) stuff, right?

        With regards to the blog post itself, I’ll chime in and say that WordPress is not killing creativity. WordPress is a simply a tool, as most commenters here seem to realise. I don’t see where it is impeding your ability to design a site. The designer/developer has full control over the markup and the CSS in the theme.

        • http://www.glenhealy.com Glen

          What I mean is by editing themes, using premium themes,etc as opposed to designing a site, building it in HTML,CSS, Javascript,etc. Then flipping it into say a wordpress blog or wordpress as the CMS.

  • http://www.badkarmastudios.com Robin Burks

    My answer is a resounding “No.” When creating a site (even for WordPress), I start by just creating without thinking of any particular limitation in mind. Then I code the site in XHTML/CSS and then integrate it into WordPress by adding the appropriate WordPress templating tags. WordPress doesn’t limit creativity in ANY way if a designer knows how to code a website and knows how to use WordPress templating tags properly. You can take any design and make it work with WordPress with the proper know-how.

    • http://themeforest.net/user/epicera/portfolio?ref=epicera Brandon Jones
      Author

      I agree – it’s true that a lot of the early themes for WordPress (and most of the free themes) are pretty generic, we’ve hit a point where most designers and coders know how to really do just about anything with the code… so design and creativity is limited only by the guy/girl behind the mouse and keyboard, not the limits of the CMS framework ;)

      • http://www.celwinfrenzen.com Celwin Frenzen

        “so design and creativity is limited only by the guy/girl behind the mouse and keyboard, not the limits of the CMS framework”

        Well said Brandon! Could not agree more :)

  • http://mokshasolutions.com Moksha

    Yes to some extend wordpress is killing web design. but there are people who will say otherwise.

    • http://skattertech.com Sahas Katta

      I’m a student and I spent about 3 months developing Skatter Tech on WordPress. I can honestly say that I can recognize whether a website is running on WordPress without looking at the source nearly 99% of the time. That isn’t because WordPress is limited, but because many people base their site off an existing popular template. People also tend to create a basic header/body/footer layout that looks just like every other website/blog.

      This is not to say that beginner developers should be accused of boring design practices, but it is to say that professionals should try breaking some boundaries. It feels like the psychology of web designers often leads them to sticking to something comfortable and easy to code.

      I feel like I was able to escape that practice simply because I did not know how to write code or design anything for that matter before I began. I actually have not asked a design community what they think about Skatter Tech to date. Any feedback would be truly appreciated.

      Here’s my account of the decisions I made why designing the website:
      http://skattertech.com/2011/02/behind-the-scenes-skatter-tech-3-0-in-the-making/

      Here’s the announcement post:
      http://skattertech.com/2010/12/welcome-to-skatter-tech-3-0/

  • http://ccpmultimedia.com Connor Crosby

    I really don’t think WordPress (or any CMS for that matter) is “killing” web design. Whenever I design for WordPress, I start with an XHTML and CSS file. From there I add the WordPress tags to make it functioning theme. I could see sort of why they would say that since a lot of designs are for a blog and not a regular site. But, I’ve created a couple “regular” websites using WP so it’s easier for the client.

  • http://www.dharmakelleher.com Dharma Kelleher

    What is a Content Management System other than a tool that allows for regularly updated content, whether it’s WP, Drupal or any other database system. For a lot of clients who lack coding know-how, a CMS with a WYSIWYG UI allows them to update their content without hiring me every time they want to update it.

    That said, when I begin work on a project, I don’t build around WordPress’ capabilities. I build the site around the client’s goals, the site and page goals, the feel of the site, the style, etc. I build mockups in Photoshop. Once I get approval on that, I code the HTML, CSS and/or Javascript.

    Only after these static pages are built do I give one iota of thought about the CMS. In a sense, I make WordPress fit the site rather than designing a site to fit WordPress. I know enough PHP so that WP doesn’t get in the way of my creativity. It simply provides some basic functionality that I can springboard off of.

  • http://www.deluxive.se Christopher Anderton

    If you can design it. You can create a WordPress theme. I don’t see any what so ever limitations. However, you will find out after a while that the reason that almost every WP theme out there follows the same conventions, is because it’s working for the user that know how to interact with the design. When you do something different, people are getting confused. I tried it myself a couple if times on a rather well visited food blog (Swedish). The first thing i noticed was that the heatmap looked like a click-everywhere-galore-map, also many users left.

    My conclusion is that if you gonna change design conventions that has become a defacto standard, you need to take it slow. If you are designing for your own amusment or for a client that want to be unique, then you can do what ever you want.

  • http://www.sj777.in SJ……(sujith)

    simply……….YESSS.

  • anon

    I don’t really have anything against CMS’s in general but just the mindset of some people that use it. Some are like:”oh creating a site for a company? That’s really easy, it’ll take about an hour. Just ‘install’ wordpress/joomla/drupal and it’ll be done in the hour.” I’m like: “WTF dude?”.

  • http://www.abrightconcept.com Gabriel

    Hmmm… I feel like how much WordPress gets in the way of a design depends entirely on what the client needs done with WordPress.

    If it’s a simple site with some pages and a blog, you can anything with WordPress easily. If they’re running picture galleries in their posts, 7 different ads in 3 different columns and in several sections, and about 20 widgets worth of content-manageable sections in addition to the posts and pages, then the intended functionality of WordPress absoutely is a limiting factor. I agree with one of the panelists, at some point it’s easier to start from scratch and build your own CMS.

    There was another panelist who said that any customization is easy and the documentation is everywhere. That’s not true. Intended functionality is well-documented and easy to work with, but as soon as the needs creep outside what WordPress was built for, you’re in trouble. Just try chasing the certain function calls through 2 dozen php files to find it’s actual declaration.

    If you don’t consider the development needs along with the design, WordPress is going to be a pain to simply throw in after the fact.

    • DED

      Gabriel, I agree with you to a point, it can be more effective for a team to build a custom CMS. But, a designer is usually not the person to be doing that. That is, unless the designer is also a seasoned programmer. A CMS is really a backend software solution that works in tandem with a front-end that becomes dependent on the server side code. For instance in word-press we need to use word-press template tags and in Spring we need to know the jsp template tags.

      You make good points.

  • Ducks On a Railing

    WordPress, like so many other CMSs is a tool. Do tools kill creativity? …wait for it… it’s on the tip of my tongue… considering all the angles here…. NOT!!! You might as well say Photoshop and Illustrator are killing creativity.

    Committees, unrealistic budgets, and unrealistic deadlines on the other hand, can bring creativity to its knees and blow it away gangland style, without so much as a “any last words?” request… Suicidal freelance designers and design studios constantly under-cutting each other to get the job are certainly tossing a few grenades in the general direction of creativity and devaluing the industry as a whole.

    I’d actually venture to say that the CMSs are doing their part to try and save creativity, by reducing development time and leaving a little more or our meager budgets for the creative team!

    • http://webkohder.net Sara Marie

      Ducks! I absolutely agree with you. To me, WordPress is great for designers who aren’t also hardcore programmers. But the more I learn to program within WordPress, the more freedom and flexibility I have with my designs. The added benefit is it provides a way to learn a little PHP here and there without having to know a lot to get started with an awesome website.

      The problem is what CLIENTS want, and it’s going to be the same with or without CMSes! They want quick, cheap, blocky, and schmaltzy Internet marketing. And for every designer who already makes enough and can look down their nose at these clients, there’s 50 others lined up for the peanuts they’re about to get paid. Telling them all to go into other lines of work because you don’t like it isn’t easy, especially in this economy.

      Personally, I do what jobs I can and don’t worry too much about innovation. It’ll always be there, even if all us plebeians are doing other things. And when I can take a more creative gig, sure, I’ll bite. I can do anything I can think of in WP.

  • http://www.quintenpowell.com Quinten Powell

    I don’t think that Content Management Systems limit the creativity of web designers at all. I use WordPress and I don’t feel like the template system stifles my creativity. If I sit down to design a site, I design it how I see fit. Whether or not I decide to do something simple or do something crazy design-wise is really determined by whether or not I can code that design into a functional site or layout that doesn’t break. The CMS is usually an afterthought per-se, a way to plug in dynamic content after the design is done, since I usually have a fully functional layout before converting it into a template.

    I think the argument is pretty broad and can be interpreted a lot of different ways. The amount of creativity that goes into a design has more to do with the purpose/intent of the site (and who is designing it) than what the CMS is. Maybe it just appears WordPress is at fault because the popularity of blogs has led more designers in that direction. I think a better question would be is Apple killing Web Design. While I think it’s a beautiful thing, the desire to mimic OSX gui elements has led Web Design in a more stagnant direction than Content Management Systems have.

    I believe that the ability to build websites where I can allow customers to edit specific information without breaking my design or calling me multiple times a night has done more good for me than bad :) Interesting points all around though.

  • http://www.redrovermg.com Leon

    I think the bigger question is “Is wordpress making Designers Lazy?”. As a self learned designer, I can say CMS helps out a great deal. I started out with a WYSIWYG system with extreme constraints. Learned how to hand code, but lacked the programming skills to really develop a great site. Enter CMS, which in essence is just structure, I now have a high end system and in customizing it, I’ve learned a bit of file structure, simple php understanding, as well as a more complex understanding of css.

    Since using wordpress and creating/modifying themes, I’ve become a better designer. The problem becomes when designers are doing more modifying themes than creating unique originals. But even saying that, the limits of a design rest upon it’s designer and his knowledge. If I’m a great designer with a little budget, am I supposed to forgo my idea since I don’t have the money to get a programmer to donate a unique system? “Beggars can’t be choosy”

    The larger design companies who have the resources and means to build a CMS system can turn their noses up at us little guys not so fortunate. We have to work with what we’re dealt. There are 3 main types of web designers, those who deal is development, those who deal in design, and those who manage both. For the designers, this is a foot in the door to becoming the middle.

  • http://www.wpverse.com WPverse.com

    I think themes are like any other tools. It’s all up to the person’s who’s in control of it. In this case if a person wants to use an “of-the-shelf” theme for their company, don’t want to make mods to it and they’re happy with it, then more power to them.

    But in my experience with all my clients, everyone wants to customize their site with the look, color, photos, etc. If one’s looking to make their clients happy and build a functional website to help that company on the road, then using WordPress and “off-the-shelf” themes are a God-send to make things happen more quickly.

    I for one love there’s a ton of WordPress themes which allow me to run ideas by my clients quickly and complete projects quickly.

    If you’re into really pushing your own designs and want to do a lot of hard work to get the ball rolling, go for it. More power to you too!

  • Rick

    I have to agree. I feel like when I do a WordPress site for a client I’m limited to the different types of pages I can have in a site not because I can’t do it but because clients will have a harder time using it. I hate having to use plugins to get multiple WYSIWYG fields to fill in different parts of a page without the client breaking it. I wish WordPress would allow for more write panels rather than simplified custom fields or taxonomies.

  • http://www.kstudiofx.com Carina Javier

    Definitely not. I LOOOVE wordpress and have been known to break the mold of typical blog looking sites for my clients that need CMS or blog capabilities. I’ve been known to even use wordpress just for ease for myself when updating sites for some clients that tend to need edits more often than not.

    Here are some examples:

    http://markoslavnic.com/shades-of-grey/
    http://juanjuansalon.com/home/
    http://roquecozzette.com/
    http://dezaier.com/site/collections/

  • Andre

    I don’t believe that content management systems are killing web design, however I have seen some web sites fall victim to a format in how the content is visually delivered. Headers, date posted, tags and categories show up and look very familiar to web designers. With so much exposure to wordpress I can probably pick a site out that uses it without glancing at the code via firebug or view source. However, designers that understand the hum-drum default structure can overcome this repetitive visual styles. But this can be only ultimately decided on the client, designer and how the web site is and will be structured that governs the design style.

    I guess just stop using posted on, tags and categories, but then that wouldn’t be user friendly.

  • http://synfyre.net n1tr0b

    It also very saddens me to see people creating forums without knowing the roots of the application. I also agree that technology limits creativity. We’re so dependent on it that we don’t care to take effort to design a whole system for ourselves.

    -n1tr0b

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  • Ive

    Sometimes we have to think outside of the box!

  • Juan Antonio

    Simply, NOOOOOOOOOO

    The problem is that designers don’t want learn to code. The customers wants independency from designer to change “their” website. Desingers, sometimes, forgot who is the owner of the site. The customer wants update site easy and without call to the designer and pay everytime.

    http://welovewp.com/

    Sorry my bad english.

  • http://www.lastrose.com LastRose

    It’s been said, and I’ll say it again, a CMS is nothing more than a tool.
    There is a saying that form should fit the function and not the other way around.
    A CMS limits creativity about as much as a wireframe does. A CMS will expect to have certain blocks (a post, recent posts, comments, etc). And you would have to layout these blocks and design them. If it limits your design in any way, it may be because you are not using the right tool for the job. If you are having trouble hammering a nail with a screwdriver, you shouldn’t be using a screwdriver!

  • Ruben Rojas

    I thinks that this type of videos need subtitles for any person that do not understand english at 100%.

    Great theme and great comments, thanks to all participants.

  • Brett

    I don’t think wordpress hinders us at all, if anything it makes it easier to edit the content later. When I design sites intended to go into wordpress, I design in Photoshop, hand code in XHTML and CSS and actually build the entire site with content from scratch and THEN integrate into wordpress. WordPress is designed so nicely that it makes it simple to just load up your content and then move some things around from the default configuration to make it work for your project.

    I haven’t had a site I couldn’t get built into wordpress. It’s pretty flexible.

  • http://hoppermag.com paul

    I have had similar questions, particularly when just recently handed the task of creating an ecommerce site on wordpress. A single man building an ecommerce site was unthinkable a few years back… it took teams to do such things! But I did it, in three weeks, using wordpress.

    My journey with wordpress has been a crazy one. Last year I started an online magazine called hopper mag ( http://hoppermag.com ), and was forced to constantly reinvent my theme. I was the only developer / designer on this project, and what came out of it was kind of an experimentation on pushing wordpress past the normal boring blog format into a full-fledged CMS that looked and felt like something new. I have gotten a lot of interesting comments about it, people remarking “wow, thats wordpress?” It is not the best designed site, but it does push the envelope for me as to what is possible with wordpress.

  • http://www.brettjankord.com/ Brett

    I would agree that limiting your designs to the “perceived constraints” of WordPress seems to kill creativity. I believe some designers, usually beginners, are not sure of what all is capable with WordPress so they create a theme that only has the basics. Usually you’ll see free WordPress themes that fall into the “cookie cutter layout” category. The designers are limited because they do not understand what is fully capable with WordPress. I don’t think this is the fault of WordPress, its the fault of the designer for not pushing the design further than what they think is possible with WordPress. There are plenty of themes out there that showcase You Can be creative with WordPress, most of these push the idea of how WordPress should be used.

  • Tim

    I think the use of CMSs can limit some people’s creativity to some extent. There have been so many times when I’ve visited a site and instantly been able to tell it’s powered by wordpress.

  • http://for-w-art.deviantart.com/ forwart

    WordPress isn’t killing Web Design. Lazyness is…

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  • Allsing Arne Gunnarsson

    Actually, I think I’m reading the same stuff now as when I was a pup in high school. Only difference was the NAME. Joomla. Use it or don’t use it. It shouldnt run you to vast creativity desert if you actually know your job. Cheers from Croatia.

  • http://www.callthisgeek.ca Kelly Boland

    Absolutely not! Some people will choose to go with a pre-built template for their site, but most don’t really want to. I often find that my clients want to use wordpress… but not have a “generic” site. I design a site as I would normally and build it into a wordpress theme for them. BUT wordpress also lets me go a step further, because my clients what to control their site, it also gives me the ability to create custom widgets, with matching plugins for them. This leads to some VERY happy clients, and I didn’t have to build the CMS myself :)

    This does unfortunately require programming skills, which can be a problem for some designers.
    (I am a programmer who learned design as a side project)

  • Dennis

    I don’t think WordPress is killing Web Design. I’m a hugh fan of WP. And I think it is pretty easy to set up a wordpress, even for beginners. Download a free theme or pay for a theme, and within a few seconds your theme is activated. But then your website looks just the same like 1000 others…

    As a web designer, I only use the back-hand of WordPress and create my own themes. So I think that WordPress isn’t killing Web Design but WP is only helping us to create faster back-hand systems.

    Grtz,

    Dennis

  • http://www.serostar.com Ryan Ludwig

    I’m not sure why Expression Engine was mentioned in the same category here. There are no templates for EE. You build from scratch. There’s no design constraints aside from what you can do with HTML / CSS. EE is built for custom designs.

    • eeean

      Without wanting to start a CMS war, I totally agree.

      For me, having looked at several CMS’… EE was the first one that got the hell out of my way and stopped me thinking too heavily about the ‘system model’. WordPress on the other hand, feels like glue in comparison. I find myself being slowed down by the constant battle between the mental model of how I wish a site to work and the system model of how it needs to work. Granted, partly this is due to my lack of advanced WP knowledge, but the signs are apparent without me having to delve that deeply. I already know which one is healthier for a better design.

  • http://themolitor.com Chris Molitor

    I totally disagree with this.

    I think knowing the “tool” (i.e. WordPress) certainly helps when designing, but ultimately the challenge is finding ways to make WordPress work with the design, not making the design work with WordPress.

    What results is getting creative with the design AND getting even more creative with WordPress.

  • http://www.behance.net/lucasdegen Lucas Degen

    I do agree but this is not new.

    I design in the 960 grid framework, maybe I shouldn’t for all websites. So skip the idea you are designing for WordPress. Design by using a pen and paper. Think: “In every design I make, I’m going to design something I didn’t do before.”

  • http://www.bryandhughes.com Bryan Hughes

    I’ll only agree with the idea that WordPress is killing web design if it is also agreed that the availability of pens and pencils killed print design.

    Pretentious nonsense.

  • http://www.designpanoply.com Design Panoply

    I think it is making designers MORE creative. Now you have to design something that looks good and works in a variety of different CMS.

  • http://www.drivvedwebbyra.se Fredrik

    I think this is a good thing! Y, u say… well now even more smaller businesses can afford to get a good CMS without paying tons of money = More sites to create and more stuff to do even better:)

  • # Fez

    I don’t even understand why this was even discussed as a topic.

    The number 1 thing that people need to consider and keep in mind when embarking on a new project is the budget. The budget is what would essentially limit the functionality. Now if the budget covers all the slated and agreed upon functionality then great the designer is free to design all those elements into their work.

    This topic just assumes that a designer would just randomly sit and design anything if it weren’t for WordPress and other content management systems. This is simply not the case!

    Any decent project is carefully considered and the functionality is decided upon and laid out. THENNNN the designer sets to designing all of that in.

    Meh =\

  • http://www.deanographics.com Dean

    The only way I think this is actually taking away from web design is through the use of templates built for the masses. Giving regular users a sleek design and access to the CMS makes designers almost useless. Most of them are really well built yet generic enough to just pop there web 2.0 type logo up top and they are good to go.

  • http://www.hawktimewebdesign.net Gary Calhoun

    Contact management systems like wordpress takes away from me recieving recurring monthly income from doing updates on various sites. Everyone likes an easy way to do stuff and sure there is always away around paying someone a 1000 plus to design you a site for scratch. WordPress to me isnt that appealing yes its simple but designers can create better designs and developers can do the framework if you pay someone to outsource or if you develop yourself which I do. If my client wants a site with the works and they dont care about SEO then so be it they will get the works. Thats just me I just don’t like when it takes away from my business.

    I however do not feel to crucify the people who use it though thats their business. My sites side by side next to wordpress I know in the long run which people would rather. I think wordpress is great for newbies wanting to whip something together real quick.

  • http://simonong.net Simon

    I don’t think WordPress or any CMS out there is killing web design since the term itself, content management system is focused on web content, not web design.

    A good web designer can create a simple-to-complex web design if he/she knows what to do and how to do it, regardless of whether they use CMS or not.

  • http://www.stookstudio.com Erwin Heiser

    “Have you worked with CMS’s like WordPress or Expression Engine and felt like you can’t break the mold? ”

    You’ve obviously never used ExpressionEngine :)

    • http://www.elionweb.com Justin Hubbard

      Well said sir :)

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  • http://www.redkitecreative.com Debbie Campbell

    My answer is a definite ‘no.’ The HTML and CSS is totally customizable – the only limitation is the capability of the designer/developer.

    WordPress imposes no limitations at all as far as a default template or look-and-feel. I never consider that I need to fit my clients’ requirements into a WordPress mold when I begin design work; I’m free to do anything. *Any* design, no matter how complex, can work with WordPress but it’s up to the designer to learn how to work with template tags, or even better – learn how to use a framework like Theme Hybrid and gain a firmer understanding of how WordPress actually works *with* your design. The mass of free, poorly-designed themes out there is not an accurate picture of the high-quality theming that can be done by a WordPress-savvy designer.

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  • http://www.nepabirdproject.org/portfolio Kevin Ripka

    I’m on the fence on the subject and it obviously is case by case. Personally, I switched over to textpattern a few years ago because I thought it was easier to have granular control based on my knowledge base at the time. I like starting without any template for the coding, just like I like starting with a blank page for the design. It works for me. But I certainly know others who have a handful of wordpress template layouts and all their design is a permutation of those. So they start with a set layout and design around it. Whose work is better? Hard to say. Certainly my work is more varied when it comes to layouts. But are the sites being created aesthetically pleasing and usable? Sure. And starting from a template they can get the work done faster and bill more. Do I feel better at about my profession doing it my way. Yep. But there are others who can have the fine grain control over wordpress that I do in textpattern. So it’s a push. It’s not a question of one cms over another. It’s really the matter of one person or another. You have designers. You have production artists. And then you have everyone in between. And, with so many different skills that can be utilized, you have every flavor of skill set imaginable. Far more than any cms ruining the web is people’s lack of knowledge over their ability to produce/get work ratio.

  • http://armandoboni.com Armando Boni

    I would say YES and NO. Yes because most of designers go modifying themes, and NO because there are still some good designers who make content managment on customers websites easier using wordpress.

  • Jordon

    I am a very young web designer. I am currently using Joomla for my site. I do not think that cms’s are deystroying web design. The reason being, I can sit there and use code I have already wrote and paste it in or I can use a cms and tweak the layout or completely change it. Either way I am still designing the site. I think using a cms just allows designers to get the job done faster. You are still doing the design and a significant amount of the coding, especially if you are building a template from the ground up.

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  • Allan

    I think a GOOD designer can still make a great site out of it, but it’s a bit of a hassle.

    But then the advantages for the clients are enormous. Just say “You can update from your cellphone”. Hard to beat.

  • Jim Davis

    Problem is not WordPress, the problem for designers is that the CMS can be more creative than the designers.

    As a customer of web designers, I really don’t want to pay a designer a lot of money for him/her to spend hours and hours developing a website that I may or may not like when I know it can be done in one tenth of the time and and one tenth of the price on a WordPress platform which could look just as good or even better that what the designer created from scratch.

  • http://723media.com Dave

    I agree with a lot of the comments posted already. WordPress couldn’t kill design. Like any other CMS, it is simply a tool. It comes down to the designer thinking of ways to push that tool to the limits.

    This is a site design that I did a few years ago that I use to illustrate this argument.

    http://professagrafix.com

    If you design solely FOR a CMS, then you limit yourself and kill your own design. The CMS doesn’t.

  • anthony alexander

    i think centered fixed width layouts did that many years ago, but since design is based on functionality i dont get what you mean

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  • rawraj

    WordPress is Killing Creativity, Yes….BUT not directly. Infact you cannot even blame WordPress or any CMS for that matter.
    Playing on Brenden Dawes quote here, lets take the handgun, its only dangerous if its in the wrong hands(pun intended).

    So WordPress(lets stick to this for now) is killing creativity because it has a wide range of free themes. You have your client telling you, lets do a wordpress, its works out of the box and they can select any theme they want.

    From a designers point of view you have your client involving themselves in the design, by choosing a theme which you are supposed to modify.

    How designers are Killing creativity when using wordpress or any other CMS because they adopt wordpress in a bid to make that transition to “web designer-cum-developer” they go in for the “easiest CMS out there”(depending on who’s post he read, but most probably its wordpress or Joomla) and when they finally get down to coding the template, they realize they have bitten off more than they can chew.(I am only speaking about those designers who just “jump” in even without a basic knowledge of HTML of CSS forget PHP and Mysql and extension building or templating).
    I keep seeing such posts often on forums or CMS and on CMS template website support forums,
    A short digress of my own personal story where creativity was killed just because CMS existed ;-).
    I have used them cause an agency who outsources their work to me decided the quickest way to deal with their clients is to go in for a CMS with the stratergy of taking a membership in any of the Template sites, Create screen shots show the client modify it a little and deliver it.

    Coming back….you will see posts on such forums where they upload a screenshot to a template forum(or joomla forum) and ask which template will be the easiest to convert to this.
    Like the ad agency I mentioned have creative people (who do mainly print) and they work backwards. They get a concept and then jump to the template site and search for something that closely matches that and then work from there.

    You really cannot blame them though I have worked with them on a desing from a scratch and successfully integrated it with Joomla and got a lot of other functionality working. But the entire process of approving a the design took 3 months. Some changes requiring us to totally dump the entire layout and start fresh when coding the template.
    But we did it was unique it looked great and almost everyday said. “I don’t believe this is Joomla” that was a compliment in itself. This was 4 years ago.

    You really cannot blame the CMS it is a tool, but you can blame it only for its existence.
    Its existence promotes these problems. Laziness.
    The biggest problem with using a CMS clients expect you to charge peanuts for it, they say “but its free” 90% of your job is already done.
    So a designer or a company is not motivated enough to spend time creating something new.and unique unless the client is willing.

    Its also the budget, I had to put out a competitive quote cause a friend who outsources stuff(who does only site management as a part of offline marketing and promotional activities) wanted to work with me as with an earlier site my friend had a tough time getting simple things to work in wordpress and they kept saying that this is not possible in wordpress(when it was).
    Suggesting was just use wordpress we will pick up a template and edit it. So I opted for it.
    I ended up doing more work that I quoted. Because they wanted stuff to the left and then wanted it on top and then removed and what not.
    I generally work with Joomla and wordpress seemed easy at first to customize. But later on I realized I there is a higher learning curve for advanced customizations.
    I somehow got the extensions to do the job put my foot down for further customizations and also did not put in all the creative ideas I got for the design cause that would mean more time on a fixed budget.
    I could have given a site with the works(functional works that is) and something unique if not for the “fixed-budget” that was already low to being with.
    Bottom line is that a complete hybrid can do justice to a CMS like wordpress. Since creativity is more of an innate talent I guess Designers can take the time upgrade their coding skills and go through the CMS of their Choice and they can do wonders.
    Or a team should work. A Designer and a coder working together.
    Till today every website I have seen that was built on a custom CMS has given me an error(especially the .net/asp ones) They entire site crashes and you can see yellow highlighted text and I have seen this with website that are up and running for 3 months. the clients have no clue about the bug.
    Same with PHP giving error in randomly or having bugs in the backend where you “cannot do certain things”
    Nobody create a Custom CMS from a scratch everytime. The anti-opensource CMS groups of people out there are always “bitching” about WordPress and the rest because they cannot bill the client as much.
    They make a big deal of the Custom CMS and call it an Enterprise web application and charget the client 10 times more while they themselves are using their own “closed source CMS” that only gets the bugs fixed when they are modifying it for new clients.
    Deployment takes much longer …I guess this is enough, thats an entire story in itself. I end here

  • me

    Interesting discussion.

    Unfortunately, I think 99% of the people here may have completely missed the point of what the panel was discussing.

    The question isn’t do you personally find WP limiting in YOUR day to day work, but rather, is the proliferation of web sites that are obviously nothing more than slightly altered “themes” killing the art of web design as a WHOLE?

    Up until recently I think web design was considered just another form of graphic design. Unfortunately, with these templates, it’s no longer necessary to rely on someone who is trained in visual communication to create a site for you. All you have to do is download a theme, change a couple things here and there, and charge a client thousands of dollars for a “website design”. THAT is what has killed the craft of web design.

    If you are a WP maestro then you are not really the problem that they are getting at. Personally, I don’t know enough about CMS programs. I know they are useful and I intend to learn a couple, but they have in many ways replaced the function that a skilled visual artist filled in the print world.

    Downloading a theme and changing a couple colors and fonts does not make one a “graphic designer” or a “web designer”. At best it makes you a production artist.

    Go to the websites of some successful ad/design studios and it is a depressing site. Oh look, they downloaded this one theme and altered it a bit and put it in their portfolio. Oh look, they slightly modified the same theme and slapped a new logo on it and now that is in their portfolio of “design” as well.

    I know I’m coming off like a snooty elitist, but in the print world you would be considered a charlatan if you designed an ad or magazine or logo for someone and then slightly “altered” it and charged a new client the same amount of money for a design you had sold someone else.

    But we’re just in a different era all together. If you are truly skilled you will make any tool bend to your will and will never have to worry about being guilty of “killing web design”. But if you download a theme and mess with it a little and charge someone a large sum, you are definitely a part of the problem.

    In the early days there were a lot of BAD looking, hand coded HTML sites. Today, there are a lot of BAD looking, cookie cutter CMS sites. And they aren’t bad because they are aesthetically ugly, they are bad because they don’t achieve the goal of good design: making sure each piece is uniquely designed and tailored for each client. That used to come first, THEN the design. Now, you buy your template and hope that what the client wants can fit into it, otherwise, you’re kind of stuck.

  • Juanvi

    For me, wordpress is not killing the webdesign! Actually any designs would work on wordpress. Its just how you code it!! ; ) I do wordpress themes from scratch and find it much more difficult to edit a theme than to create your own ; )

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  • http://www.elionweb.com Justin Hubbard

    Considering that you shouldn’t even use a CMS until after you’ve created at least a static website, then I’d give it a resounding NO! CMS or Frameworks in general aren’t limiting tools, they’re only outlets for making your static “creation” dynamic much easier.